Please help with loitering problem- very long [Archive]

TonyR

07-01-2006, 06:37 AM

This is regarding a different building than the one in a previous post about security cameras and privacy issues. Any advice will be sincerely appreciated as this situation is heading in a dangerous direction.

Two tenants in a 6 unit building like to hang out by the front steps and on the inner stairs leading to other units. They invite their friends over and it sometimes turns into an all-day and night party. The other tenants have to wade through the crowd and ask them to move so they can get to their unit.

This has been going on for about two weeks now. There were issues before but it was always just a few people hanging around. Now, it's sometimes a dozen or more people. At first I spoke in person to all residents, reminding everyone that loitering for hours on end is not allowed. When this had no effect, I gave the two tenants in question 3-day cure or quit notices which stated that they were in violation of their lease due to disturbing the quiet enjoyment of the property for other tenants.

Before the 3-day period expires I get a call from a tenant's rights organization stating that tenants have a right to gather at the property with their friends. They say that the other tenants were not blocked from entering the premises or their units. They also state that further "warnings" would constitute harassment and could spur legal action against me.

This is a rent controlled city (Berkeley, CA) and just cause is needed for eviction. According to my attorney, I need documentation to support a claim of consistent lease violations- videotape, written complaints from other tenants, and first-hand accounts from me.

This is going to be hard to get. This building used to have cameras but they get vandalized. Now that the tenants know I'm trying to crack down new cameras would almost certainly get broken. Other tenants are scared to file formal complaints. My own statements were called "snapshots" by the tenant group's attorney- meaning I came by at, say, 8:00 pm but the tenants were only out there from 7:59 pm to 8:15 pm.

Calling the police has not been effective. If- and that's a big if as this is considered a low priority call- they actually pay a visit some of the crowd disperses and the tenants say "hey, I live here" and the cops move on.

What can I do? I understand that I can't (nor do I wish to) restrict tenants from ever standing outside with their friends, but it's gotten way out of hand. There are No Loitering and No Trespassing signs posted. I'm very concerned that this long holiday weekend is going to turn ugly and the other tenants are screaming for help.

Thank you for reading through all of this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Tony

Jim Johnson

07-01-2006, 07:31 AM

Tony,
What fun it is to be a landlord in a situation like yours... well I do not know your area of the challenges these groups pose but I have seen something like this in Denver. On our 16th street mall we have a homeless issue... lots of homeless people that gather around certain street corners hanging out and bothering others. They really liked one building that housed a McDonald's. One week my wife and I went sailing past the fast food joint and under normal conditions would have been hounded for a handout... but not one person stood outside looking for spare change... the solution... classical music. The put some speakers well out of reach and piped classical music out of them. Seems the homeless, hang out kids and street people do not listen to much classical music and listening to it all day was more than they could handle... so they have picked up and moved shop to other parts of the 16th street mall.

So... you attract more bees with honey... and less loiters with music... classical music that is. I am sure if it were rap the whole block would be filled with dancers... but the people eating at MacDonald's seem not to mind.

You could have a motion sensor turn on the music whenever there is movement.

If you really wanted a security cameras... there are light fixtures that have them built in and are very hidden. They can transmit the video and audio to a remote location inside the building... that signal can be forwarded to you home computer via the Internet and recorded. I use cameras in some situations to 'monitor' activity. My system runs a cpu that has no monitor or keyboard. It is accessed through my home network and records 24/7 when it detects movement. I can log into the cpu through my home computer from anywhere there is Internet access and take a look at what my eye in the sky has seen...

anyway... I digress...

Debbie

07-01-2006, 07:41 AM

WOW! I like that idea as well as Jim's special system thingy....

Good save, Jim!

Debbie

TonyR

07-01-2006, 07:54 AM

Ha! Thanks for the suggestions. I like thinking outside the box. Music means speakers though and anything close enough to be loud enough would be easily smashed. And if it's high up and out of reach then you'd have to crank the volume and that would disturb other tenants.

Cameras are an option and I'll look into the hidden kind that you mentioned.

Much appreciated.

Aldo

07-02-2006, 05:13 AM

The first thing you need to do to get results from the police is to securely post 'No Loitering' signs and send a letter to the tenants advising that the sign applies to them as well as their visitors and guests. You might add that you have the support of your Fire Dept. since these loiterers are blocking an exit. (By law, a 'No Loitering' sign applies to anyone who can fog a mirror.) Then select a trusted tenant to contact you when there's a loitering problem with a promise not to reveal your source. When you get that call, contact the police with your service request, then immediately go to the property and do your best to snap a pic of the group, especially trying to photograph non-tenants, if possible. Then get in your car and drive away - about a block away and return to the property when you see the police arriving. Yes, you may have to wait a while.

If the responding police fail to disperse the group, ask them for their reasons as well as their names or, at least, their squad number. That could cause them to reassess their inaction. If they leave without taking proper action, return to your home or office and contact their shift commander to politely discuss the matter. The discussion should contain a request to have the police do occassional unannounced drive-bys to check for loiterers. This should work. If not, go directly to the local city councilman/woman with a complaint about the inaction of the police. If it gets that far, you'll see action like you've never seen before.

Warning: Don't lock horns with a tenant advocacy group. You won't win.

Final note: It's not legal, but my preferred solution to this would be a well-placed warning shot.

Debbie

07-02-2006, 05:55 AM

TonyR,

Aldo knows what he's talking about....he's a retired police officer.

So, be real nice to Aldo.....:icon_aets

TonyR

07-02-2006, 07:43 AM

Aldo and Debbie,

I appreciate the suggestions. There are signs posted. The last time the police came by, the loiterers said they'd only been hanging out for a few minutes and then walked into their apartment. The police said they were not in the business of monitoring private property so unless they caught the group out in the street causing a nuisance then it was a private matter between me and the tenants.

Waiting for the police to show is a longshot anyway, especially on weekends. I seriously doubt I can get a squad car to do the occasional drive-by. I'm also reluctant to snap photos, let alone fire off a few rounds- this is a rough crowd with weapons of their own no doubt. Perhaps I will contact the watch commander to ask for help on this matter.

There is a tenant who calls me and the police when problems occur. It's just figuring out what to do when I know they're out there. Someone from my housing association suggested hiring private security to stand watch at night if the situation continues to get worse. It's very expensive, but might be worth it.

Thanks very much.

Tony

SPIVALAW

07-02-2006, 02:57 PM

I too use the camera surveliance.

SlumLordMike

07-02-2006, 04:42 PM

What is the story on the lease that the problem tenants have with you? Is it a month to month? If so, the problem can be solved in weeks. At any rate, I doubt I would renew their lease when it does come due. An idea I would consider is quietly offering a reduced rent price to a police officer. Especially one that works the shift that your loiters like to hang around your multi and likes to come home for lunch.

TonyR

07-02-2006, 05:02 PM

Howard and SlumLordMike,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm considering cameras again but as mentioned the likelihood for vandalism is high if I place them near the front entrance or inside by the stairways. I'd have to put them pretty high up on the exterior and really can't get a very good angle on the target area. Also, systems with nightvision and zoom that will allow identification of the perpetrators are quite pricey. But this does seem like the best option.

As for not renewing the lease, this is a rent and eviction-controlled city- you can only evict or not renew for cause, and cause must be proven with substantial documentation. These tenants have already contacted tenants rights groups.

On Monday a security company is going to come out for a consultation so maybe they'll have some ideas.

Thanks again- I appreciate your comments.

SlumLordMike

07-02-2006, 05:18 PM

I wouldn't own a rental in an area that it was mandatory to renew a lease. Tenant rights groups can only hurt you if you indeed infringe on the tenants' rights. What about the other tenants rights to peacefully enjoy the property?
I would spend my efforts getting the other tenants quietly on board before I spent any money on cameras. I letter from each of them would hold pretty solid in court.

TonyR

07-02-2006, 05:42 PM

SlumLordMike,

Thanks for the reply. It is challenging owning property in the SF Bay Area. But if you want to invest in SF, Oakland, Berkeley, San Jose, etc. you have no choice at this time.

Getting other tenants to sign anything is not possible. They are not willing to jeopardize their safety. These documents would be subpoenaed by the tenant organization and must be turned over to the rent board as well so it's public record.

The rights of the other tenants are primary. But it's proving the violations that are difficult. The way tenant groups generally argue these cases is to say "Why are you discriminating against my client when other tenants also are occasionally outside the building? My ciient cannot be barred from having friends over, nor from being outside the property to socialize for short periods. Maybe the friends arrived just when you came over."

SlumLordMike

07-02-2006, 07:17 PM

At the risk of sounding harsh, it appears that your other tenants are willing to put up with the loitering if they won't voice their concerns in writing. If you still want to pursue the matter you need to find a way to get the others behind you. Executing their rights and wishes in a legal manner should keep the tenant rights idiots at bay. I would also dig much deeper into the lease renewal laws. Perhaps you need to renovate the place?

"I am not discriminating against your client, I am looking after the best interest of all the tenants in my building".

TonyR

07-02-2006, 07:56 PM

Your comments are appreciated and do not seem harsh at all. I agree with you that the other tenants share some responsibility for the situation if they're unwilling to cooperate. If I had written complaints with times and dates my attorney would start legal proceedings immediately.

The requirements for moving out tenants for renovation work or owner-move ins are quite extensive and checked carefully by the rent board. Actual major construction would have to take place and the building was upgraded a few years ago.

Thanks, Mike. Hearing other opinions is very helpful.

Debbie

07-02-2006, 08:02 PM

Although I was raised in California, I'm almost ashamed that I'm from California (Orange County area).

I knew of the rent controlled areas in California but I had not realized the extent of the Tenant Right Group thingy.

Just out of curiousity, why invest RE in California that are rent controlled? Why not invest RE in non-rent controlled areas, in and out of California?

Debbie

Teen2233

07-02-2006, 08:33 PM

SlumLordMike

07-02-2006, 09:01 PM

Teen, insofar as making things difficult it sounds like his hands are somewhat tied with the tenant group involved. Tony, one thing you might try before it gets messy is bribing them to leave.

I am have one helluva time swallowing this whole "tenant for life" thing. Ideally that is what you want, but not when someone else tells you who stays and who goes and how much you can charge them.

Aldo

07-03-2006, 05:09 AM

Okay, so my police suggestion is out the window. Your local police appear to operate differently than mine.

Due to the excessive cost of hiring virtually powerless security people, your money might be better spent for legal counsel from a well qualified landlord/tenant attorney (specifically). If you don't know of one, contact (and join) a local landlord group or association for a referral.

Here's another idea that could work and be even less expensive - if it can be done in a rent/eviction controlled area. (I know more about the sewage system in Moscow than I do about rent control.) Approach the two problem tenants with an offer of cash, maybe $300, if they will agree to sign a document terminating their lease and move within 45 days. I'd bet that you forgot about those family members who are relocating to your city and need housing. Yeah, the ones who saw your property and liked those particular units because of ............. make something up. 1st floor vs 2nd floor, room sizes or floor plan, southern exposure for their exotic house plants, or whatever.

TonyR

07-03-2006, 04:07 PM

Thanks all for the help.

Debbie,

Rent control is a pain but I wanted to invest close to home. These areas have also shown high appreciation rates so it'll be worth it in the long run.

Teen,

I understand where you're coming from but you've gotta tread very carefully when tenants have access to free legal advice.

Mike,

I've held off on the bribery angle so far because 1) I'm about 99% sure they do not wish to leave, and 2) if I ever try to force them out using the major renovation/owner move-in procedure this could come back to haunt me.

Aldo,

I have a great attorney and belong to the local CAA chapter. The owner move-in strategy is complicated and requires the filing of a lot of paperwork with the city. The rent board also follows up on the tenancy of your "relatives." In addition, because this approach has been tried so many times by owners trying to get rid of tenants paying below market rent, the tenant groups also follow up on it. If an actual relative- and it has to be someone close- parent, child, sibling, grandparent- the brother in law of my second cousin doesn't qualify- wanted to move in I'd do it, but I'm not going to commit fraud on the level required to do it illegally.

Aldo

07-04-2006, 04:42 AM

Okay. So what does your attorney advise you to do? Your reply may be helpful to others in your predicament. Thanx in advance.

LEE - LJ

07-04-2006, 07:04 AM

Tony,

1. Why not sell the building (to a friend or llc :wink: ).

Property under new management get tenants to sign addedum with loitering clause/eviction.

2. Offer discount in rent for tenants who help with loitering.

3. Increase rent/late fees/misc. fees beyond affordability and start eviction process. Cost of living (gas prices, security) can not be controlled.

4. Add the cost of the security guards or system to the rent and discount it for tenants that participate.

Remember if you renew the lease or get a new tenant add these clauses to protect yourself.

LEE

TonyR

07-04-2006, 03:44 PM

Aldo,

My attorney advised four things, two of which LEE just suggested:

1. Video surveillance. This would cost roughly $2,500 for the equipment and installation as the cameras would have to be placed high up on the building to avoid vandalism. Also, this placement would only provide coverage of the sidewalk and front steps- not inside the front doorway, in the hallway or by the inner stairwayys. To be able to identify people on camera high quality zoom and nightvision is required. I'd also need to pay about $55 a month for a static IP internet connection to monitor the cameras.

2. Persuading other tenants to file complaints. This is the preferred option.

3. Hire a security company to monitor the premises. I've contacted three in my area and this runs about $1,200 a month and that doesn't include any photos or video, just patrols that stop by once a night and when called. The problem with this is the same problem I have when I stop by the property myself- the tenants say "Yeah okay we were just leaving" and it's difficult to prove loitering as opposed to the normal flow of traffic from visitors.

4. Sell.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

TonyR

07-04-2006, 03:50 PM

LEE,

I appreciate the suggestions. I think giving tenants an incentive to cooperate is a good idea. Everyone's afraid of retatliation but it's still worth pursuing again. Raising rent/late fees etc is not an option as the allowable rent increase is mandated by the rent board each year. There are options to get a higher increase but they're tied to capital expenditures and increased operating costs, and there are complications with either approach.

Thanks,

Tony

tinae01

07-07-2006, 07:07 PM

Debbie

07-07-2006, 07:15 PM

I heard on NPR about a machine that makes a high pitched noise that teenagers and young adults can hear but older adults cannot hear. It is used to get rid of teenagers that hang out in places they are not welcome. The noise is so annoying to them they generally last less than 15 minutes.

That would be effective, provided that these teenagers and young adults have not been exposed to daily heavy-dosed bass music. Methinks that majority of teenagers and young adults have already suffer from high pitch to mid pitch range hearing loss.

Debbie

LEE - LJ

07-07-2006, 07:18 PM

I need that for some of my daughter's freinds!!! lol

:xxrotflma

Debbie

07-07-2006, 07:22 PM

I need that for some of my daughter's freinds!!! lol

:xxrotflma

But Lee.....first you gotta get audio testing done for her friends to see if their hearing are preserved. Then, and only then, turn on that high pitch thingy to her friends! :SM013:

SPIVALAW

07-07-2006, 09:42 PM

The NPR is a dog whistle. :>)

Just play country music, Hank Williams or some old Hew Haw gang

Debbie

07-07-2006, 10:07 PM

[QUOTE=SPIVALAW]The NPR is a dog whistle. :>) /QUOTE]

As a former volunteer dog trainer, I should've recognized that! :SM003:

Peach State Property Buyers

07-12-2006, 06:43 PM

I heard on NPR about a machine that makes a high pitched noise that teenagers and young adults can hear but older adults cannot hear. It is used to get rid of teenagers that hang out in places they are not welcome. The noise is so annoying to them they generally last less than 15 minutes.
Have you all tried the noise thing? You can do it online. I could BARELY hear it. A lot of teenagers are using it as their cell phone ring tone.

Chris Perosi

07-13-2006, 04:56 PM

Have you all tried the noise thing? You can do it online. I could BARELY hear it. A lot of teenagers are using it as their cell phone ring tone.

I'm with you. I'm 30 and could not hear it at all when they played it on TV. I was watching with 4 other males, ages 18 to 26. The 18 yr-old and the 26-yr-old heard it, the other two (in between ages) could not. So out of 5 adults, only 2 could hear it -- this is worth a shot if you can hook up a simple computer with a speaker playing the noise on loop... Of course, it doesn't help much if your loiterers are adults...

tinae01

07-14-2006, 12:19 PM

Does anyone know where you can find the noise on the internet?

Chris Perosi

07-14-2006, 02:27 PM

Does anyone know where you can find the noise on the internet?

http://news.com.com/A+ring+tone+meant+to+fall+on+deaf+ears/2100-11395_3-6082685.html
Click the little speaker link to download the ringtone.

I was able to hear it (30 yrs old) with the sound turned all the way up, but not at levels where I could comfortably hear just about anything else. Even what I could hear was more something I "noticed" than really truly heard. Reminds me of those hearing tests we had in school when we were kids, the one where you had to raise your left hand when you heard a high-pitched sound in the left headphone, etc...

I can tell you, from what I heard, I would get annoyed by that very quickly and would not want to hang out in a hallway where the sound was broadcast...

-Chris

Mr Investor

07-15-2006, 07:09 AM

http://news.com.com/A+ring+tone+meant+to+fall+on+deaf+ears/2100-11395_3-6082685.html
Click the little speaker link to download the ringtone.

I was able to hear it (30 yrs old) with the sound turned all the way up, but not at levels where I could comfortably hear just about anything else. Even what I could hear was more something I "noticed" than really truly heard. Reminds me of those hearing tests we had in school when we were kids, the one where you had to raise your left hand when you heard a high-pitched sound in the left headphone, etc...

I can tell you, from what I heard, I would get annoyed by that very quickly and would not want to hang out in a hallway where the sound was broadcast...

-Chris

Chris

I'll be 33 this month and it didn't bother me one bit.

The funny thing though was my daughter who is 5 1/2 was standing next to me and asked me, with her hands to her ears, Daddy what's that noise but before I could answer her, my wife who is 8 months pregnant asked the same thing because she said our baby was moving around in her belly real fast, so I guess even unborn babies hate the noise.lol

Chris Perosi

07-15-2006, 03:01 PM

This is funny, cause about an hour after I replied to that, I had to go for a physical. Sure enough, I had to do that same old hearing test where they play those high pitched noises and you have to raise your right or left hand depending on which ear it is... ;)

Anyway, the "cell phone" noise didn't bother me one bit cause I could just BARELY hear it at the highest volume level... But if I could hear it loud and clear, I think it would bother me... ;) Especially if I were in someone's stairwell trying to buy or sell drugs or something... Might feel like it was some kind of alarm. Heck, maybe this noise could be run on a motion sensor, so that those who can actually hear it really do THINK it's an alarm. This might actually solve the loitering problem....

-Chris

Aldo

07-16-2006, 04:52 AM

Chris, that's a brilliant idea.

Chris Perosi

07-16-2006, 11:58 PM

Thanks... Oddly enough, I didn't really make it up -- that's the originally intended use of this noise. Someone just found a way to make it a cell phone ring so kids can use it for that purpose. The motion sensor is a little added trick in this case so it's not playing continuously, but I don't know if I'd go so far as to say brilliant. ;)

Aldo

07-17-2006, 05:06 AM

I still think it's brilliant, so let's agree to disagree.

Chris Perosi

07-17-2006, 08:45 AM

Thanks...
<....bowing my humble head and walking away.....>

Jim FL

07-18-2006, 02:15 AM

Tony,
If these 'tenants and friends' are simply hanging out, and annoying the other tenants, blocking access, etc, do you think they'd still do so if you added to the crowd.

If this were me, I'd be there during the weekends when they are, with some friends, hanging out.
I'd bet they would leave, and not really like me sitting there, taking video and still shots of their in-activity.

I might even be inclined to bring along a boom box and play some classical music, and a little table, with a sign that says, 'sign in'.

What would make these folks hanging out in your building feel really uncomfortable?
A cop? A security guard?
A doorman?
Your friends and family painting the place, a BRIGHT obnoxious color?
Wouldn't that stair well and area look wonderful in YELLOW or PINK, florescent?
or
Put in a heater, your in california, make that puppy 98 degrees at all times, and they'll not want to loiter for long.

I've heard the noise people talked about in this thread, or actualle, heard about, cause I'm too old to actually hear it.
My kids though, they asked me to turn off the pc speaker, cause it hurt their ears.

Whatever it takes, I'd make life real hard for these folks, without stepping on their rights of course, and they'll leave.

Where do they stand anyway?
is this place comfortable? make it not so much so.

Ever see those things with spikes, or inverted nails on roof lines to keep birds from landing/sitting on them?
Same thing here, make it terrible to sit/stand there.
Not nails, but take away the space where they stand.

Makes me really happy to not be in your enviroment. Talk about tenant friendly area, sheesh.

Good luck with this, and seriously, let us know what happens.

Thanking goodness I don't have this issue,
Jim FL

TonyR

08-02-2006, 07:28 AM

Thanks to all for the suggestions. The noise deterrant is an interesting concept but what do you do about the non-problem tenants with kids? Subject them to the same irritating noise? This sounds problematic but I appreciate the idea.

Jim,

Great suggestions- thank you. I don't have the time or inclination to hang out with this crowd though. Nor do I wish to risk showing up and taking photos or video. The front entrance steps and the hallway would be hard to "make uncomfortable" as the good tenants also need access.

I just hired a security company which will come out on a per-call fee basis. They come armed and in uniform, take pictures, ask trespassers to leave, give residents and their parent(s) notices of violations, and send written reports and photos to me after each incident. We'll see how it goes.

Much appreciated all- thanks.

T.R.