Lawsuit nation!

[investinAK]

Hey all, I just saw an ad on TV that prompted me to post this. I read in the William Bronchick book "Flipping Properties" that an average of 152 lawsuits are filed in the U.S. PER MINUTE!!! I am frightened by that, especially considering I just saw an ad on TV for lawsuits, for get this, IF YOUR FLIGHT WAS DELAYED OR CANCELLED!!!. Crazy! Protect yourselves and your assets!!

[Dan Auito]

Hey Ryan, Bills ears must have been burning! :SM091:

http://www.magicbullets.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446

[investinAK]

WOW! That is crazy! What timing!

[Aldo]

.......and that's the problem with today's litiguous society. When that goofy broad dumped her Mickey Dee's coffee in her lap, did she expect it to be 98.6 degrees? I don't think so! She's sitting pretty now because she knew that Big Ronnie (McDonald) would give her a zillion bucks out-of-court because it would be more cost-effective than continuing to fight it in court.

Now the good news! They have discovered what happens to attorneys when they take Viagra. They get taller.

[investinAK]

:beerchug: Cheers to that one! (if you thought it was funny!)
:ban: BOO! (if you didn't think it was funny!)

I personally thought it was hilarious! (gotta keep everyone happy though! :) )

[dealmaker]

Well, I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but I tend to correct misinformation whenever I hear, or read it.

average of 152 lawsuits are filed in the U.S. PER MINUTE

That's ALL types of lawsuits, take out divorces and it's substantially lower. And despite what politicians have convinced a lot of you about overly litigious plaintiffs suing big business because they have deep pockets; 80& OF LAWSUITS AGAINST CORPORATIONS ARE FILED BY OTHER CORPORATIONS!

dumped her Mickey Dee's coffee in her lap, did she expect it to be 98.6 degrees.

No, but she and everyone else expects their coffee to be served at a drinkable temperature, THANK GOD SHE DIDN'T TRY TO DRINK IT, SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN BURNED EVEN WORSE.
Also overlooked in this case was the fact that McDonalds had had over 700 people file claims and lawsuits between 1982 and 1992 because they had been burned by McDonald's coffee. In short, they knew that the 180 to 190 degrees at which they served it was too hot, but kept doing it.

She's sitting pretty now because she knew that Big Ronnie (McDonald) would give her a zillion bucks out-of-court because it would be more cost-effective than continuing to fight it in court

Actually, despite spending 8 days in the hospital, requiring skin grafts for her 3rd degree burns, the plaintiff offerred to settle for $20K, McDonalds refused! The jury found for her in the amount of $200K in compensatory, (reduced by judge to $160K), and another $2.7 million in punitive damages. McDonalds' profits from coffee sales are about $1.3 million per day. The judge reduced the punitive damages to $460K. After all this, McDonalds and the plaintiff reached a post-verdict settlement which is sealed. So let's assume she ended up with something less than the $620K the judge and jury awarded her.

BTW, how much would any of you take to have 3rd degree burns, that is, through the skin to the muscle tissue, applied to your genital area. Or to your tongue, lips and throat if you had tried to drink it!

I know my statments are not going to be popular with a lot of folks, but statements that are against what EVERYONE KNOWS IS TRUE, often aren't.

dealmaker

Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.

[investinAK]

Hey that's cool dealmaker! I was just quoting what I read in a book, so you didn't hurt my feelings! :) Never hurts to know the truth!

[Aldo]

No, but she and everyone else expects their coffee to be served at a drinkable temperature,

1) Carry-out coffee cools rapidly and no-one is expected to drink it before exiting the parking lot.
2) My home coffee maker prepares coffee that is too hot to drink when brewing is complete. Shall I sue the manufacturer?
3) Was this the first time she ever had coffee from Mickey's? Probably not. That said, she should have known that their coffee was very hot.

THANK GOD SHE DIDN'T TRY TO DRINK IT, SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN BURNED EVEN WORSE.

If she had attempted to drink it, she'd have known, at first sip, that it was too hot and would have taken the proper precautions. A sane person would immediately recognize the danger of drinking something that could harm him/her.

.....requiring skin grafts for her 3rd degree burns,

Genital skin grafts, necessary? I don't think so. Especially for an adult of advanced years (but we won't go there). Further, after dealing with medical emergencies for over 30 years, I never saw 2nd (not 3rd, but 2nd) degree burns caused by hot liquid. Third degree burns are common with exposure to fire and/or acid or electricity. Exposure to boiling liquid (220 degrees plus) cannot cause 3rd degree burns if the exposure is short term, as in this case.

While I stronly believe in being compensated for malfeasance, or whatever, this was clearly a case of an ambulance-chasing attorney getting lucky.

[Dan Auito]

Alan I've spoken with the Dealmaker off the boards and I can tell you buddy you two are going to have a grand old time bantering back and forth, I'm almost afraid to see the aftermath when you two get rapped up in comedy and sarcasm at the same time. Oh this is going to be good. Now I want both of you wiseman to private mssage each other to understand your perspectives and personalities. This will help keep you both allied as opposed to mis-understood. Two peas in the same pod will fight over water so that's all I'm going to say about that! :box: :SM056: :SM065:

[eldorado]

The whole point is...
How do we protect ourselves from frivilious lawsuits??
In a country where there are more lawyers in school than doctors.??
The atitude of todays society is: "gimmie somthing for nothing" and contingency lawyers are right there to help them get it..
Should I have to pay the medical bills of the fugitive that broke his leg on my property running from the police??
Surprise!! The judge ruled in his favor...
Dont rule out divorces either..I could fill ten pages on that one...Let's just say..It's a good thing I leased all my buisnes equiptment.
Of course that didn't help with false felony charges instigated by her..
Anywho..
To the best of my knowledge, Put all your properties into individual trusts with the controlling party being your LLC.
Anyone care to elaborate on this one????

[dplegacy]

I have an answer for this that may help. Contact me for more info.

[Dan Auito]

DP. Don't be afraid to post it up publically so that others can learn from your experience. This site is based on everyone trying to load these boards up with advice that can be taken to the bank! Thanks for your consideration in laying it all out here! Dan :praise:

[investinAK]

Remember the lady who claimed she found a finger in her Wendy's chili? Just read early this morning she was arrested. I guess she had a history of being "sue" happy.
Here is the story:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050422/ap_on_re_us/wendy_s_finger_21

[dplegacy]

Hey Dan,

Thanks for your quick response. I'm new to your board here and I honestly don't want to get kicked off for posting web sites and other junk up here like some spammers do. I can tell you this from a couple of years of experience that one of the best things I did for my company was to invest in a Pre-Paid Legal plan. Most people might think I'm nuts but paying a flat monthly fee for access to attorneys has saved me thousands of dollars in setting up LLC's, reviewing documents, Identity Theft protection, answering questions on landlord/tenant issues, etc.....This is something every new investor needs in my opinion! I'm still not going to post any websites up here so if you want more info, contact me directly at 804.334.3680 or email me. I'll be happy to point you in the right direction. Some of the gurus are even starting to pick this up and teach this to their clients and students! I'm all about saving money and showing others how to save as well. BUY ASSETS NOT LIABILITIES, isn't that what we are all trying to do? Anyhow, here I am if you need more info.

JD

[Dan Auito]

JD, Robert Shamin is a big advocate of pre-paid legal and he usually gives great advice however when you talk to seasoned landords www.mrlandlord.com and ask them their experience using pre-paid legal often their response it that the lawyers who take these contracts to provide quick canned answers are often unreachable and don't give you any personalized service. Many problems and dissatified complaints are often registered.

Personally I advocate that the new investor find a seasoned real estate attorney in their local area and begin cultivating that professional relationship for so many reasons. I will ALWAYS go with a local Attorney to get all my needs met to my COMPLETE satisfaction with someone who knows local law, and local people who can also be of service in multitudes of ways.

[dplegacy]

Hi Dan,

Obviously, there are a small handful of companies out there that provide "pre-paid legal services" and I would have to agree with you on the fact that most of those companies have absolutely no motivation to take your case seriously or act quickly upon whatever issue is at hand. You'd be just as well off going to find your own. However, speaking from personal experience with using the pioneer provider of these legal services (Pre-Paid Legal Services, INC. NYSE Symbol PPD), I can tell you that when I call them, they answer my call within the first 3 rings and I have a real estate attorney call me back within 8 business hours and sometimes I get patched through directly if there is one available. There is one "provider" law firm in each state so you are able to establish a relationship with their Real Estate Attorneys over time.

Since they have a nationwide network, for example if you live in Florida and want to purchase property in California, your Florida RE attorney will put you in touch with the provider attorney in California to take care of you at no extra charge. When you hire your own attorney, it's doubtful he/she will be licensed to practice in every state.

1/3 of every membership fee collected in the state goes to that provider law firm so these firms are being paid between 150k-to over $1 Million a month to handle their customers. Pre-Paid Legal Corporate monitors each and every law firm and hand selects them based on AV and BV ratings from the Martindale Hubble Law directory. If one of their provider firms is getting a significant amount of complaints, they will be immediately investigated and potentially barred from providing services to PPL customers. Another top rated law firm would then be selected in that state. If you were the owner of a provider law firm that was bringing in 500k per month, I'm sure you would do everything in your power to keep your PPL customers happy so you would not lose that kind of recurring, monthly revenue. That's how this works.

All "pre-paid legal service" providers are not the same....just like everything, it only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch but I can assure you that I stand behind this company 110% because they have already saved me thousands of dollars in legal expenses. If you want to keep an attorney in your own state on retention, that's perfectly fine and up to you but also keep this service in the back of your mind when you want to ask a quick question or invest outside of your home state. It just makes common business sense if you ask me.

JD

[Dan Auito]

Well as they say JD, THE HOOK HAS BEEN SET so I'll go ahead and bite. What does this cost and what is the commission to those who get the folks in the boat!

[Aldo]

My personal experience with Pre-Paid Legal has been less than stellar. Change the 's' to a 'c', drop the 't', and put them in the cellar. I subscribed for about 2 years and the only positive thing I can say is that my calls were returned promptly. In every case, without exception, I was told how to resolve the matter myself. The final blow was when I had an issue and the tenant had an attorney. Since I never go to a gunfight armed with a knife, I called Pre-Paid Legal. Once again, I was advised on how to handle it myself. (I obviously had to hire a real attorney and ultimately prevailed.) I filed a formal written complaint to Pre-Paid Legal (about 5 years ago) and, to date, have not received any communication from them whatever. I did call them about two months after filing the complaint and they did acknowledge receipt. But, one can't rush into things. Maybe they're still researching case law.

[dplegacy]

FYI,

Yesterday, I had to use my service because one of my tenants in TN has not paid his rent. I needed to find out what the laws are in TN regarding the eviction process. I live in Virginia so I called the Virginia provider firm yesterday afternoon and explained the situation. They referred me to the provider firm in TN and I got a call back from them at 9:15 this morning. They spent almost an hour on the phone with me helping me understand my rights as a landlord in that state and provided me with sound legal advice on how I should deal with this situation. And it didn't cost me any more than my monthly membership fee. I definitely don't have the resources available to me to hire an attorney in every state to keep on retainer in the event situations like this pop up. If you don't know your rights, you don't have any as far as I'm concerned. Plus, if I can find out my rights without paying 200 bucks an hour for it, that's more money in my pocket.

JD

[johnhyre@ameritech.net]

I don't buy into the hype promoted by many gurus designed to scare the dickens out of you so you buy their "solution". Likewise, the plaintiff's bar is interested in money for the plaintiff's bar, though it plays the PR game and couches its arguments in the form of "justice".

Our legal system has some serious issues. The two primary issues:

1) We want to create a zero-defect , utopian world where all get perfect justice. That's dangerous, because instead of gearing the system to attain the acheivable, we shoot for the impossible and do an inferior job of getting to the possible. Everyone takes everything to court instead of dealing with life's injustices in the most rational manner possible. The result: This society spends increasing amounts of time over how to distribute wealth at the expense of producing wealth. We certainly need lawyers & courts, but at some point putting our talent and energy behind lawyers & courts saps us of engineers, doctors and others who actually create things. And THAT's coming from a lawyer!

2) In the vast majority of civilized countries, when you sue someone and lose, you pick up their tab. That adds an element of risk to suing not present in the US. Because there is less downside to suing here, more people sue. This puts defendants at a disadvantage, because even when they "win", they lose as soon as the bill arrives. Plaintiffs use this to get settlements where none should be truly due. Insurance companies add to the problem by settling quickly to "cut costs" - works in the short-term, creates more lawsuits over the long-term.

What to do? Asset protection is certainly to be considered, though most REI spend too much time worrying about LLC's, trusts & the like. Those are certainly legitimate means of protection that I recommend using in the correct circumstances. BUT other considerations come first, namely: Avoid the lawsuit to begin with, or at least weaken the other side's arguments. Do business in an ethical & rational manner (the former is an especially big issue in REI) and document, document, document, starting with fair, clear and well-drafted contracts.

For an entity to actually cover you, four things must first happen:

1) You get sued for a lot of money (not just $20,000 or so);
2) You lose the lawsuit;
3) You fail to settle;
4) Your insurance does not cover you.

Those four events occurring in tandem are pretty rare for a small business. It happens, but not very often. You use entities and perhaps trusts to cover in the event it does happen - but you do not spend time & money on trusts & entities to the detriment of business fundamentals or more primary means of asset protection (e.g. - good business practices, insurance).

And the Nevada asset protection people are all wet - but that's a discussion for another day.

John Hyre

[txrigdiver]

I don't know how old this is, I think I may have seen some before and I know the one about the Irish food is pretty old but thought they all fit pretty well right here.

Subject: this year's most frivolous jury verdicts
It's once again time to review the winners of the annual Stella Awards.
The Stella's are named after 81-year old Stella Liebeck who spilled
coffee on herself and successfully sued McDonald's. That case
inspired the Stella Awards for the most frivolous successful lawsuits in
the United States.

THIS YEAR'S AWARDS GO TO:

5TH PLACE (TIED):

Kathleen Robertson of Austin, Texas, was awarded $780,000 by a jury of
her peers after breaking her ankle tripping over a toddler who was
running inside a furniture store. The owners of the store were
understandably surprised at the verdict, considering the misbehaving
toddler was Ms. Robertson's Son.
5TH PLACE (TIED):
A man, 19-year old Carl Truman of Los Angeles, won $74,000 and medical
expenses when his neighbor ran over his hand with a Honda Accord. Mr.
Truman apparently did not notice there was someone at the wheel of the
car when he was trying to steal the hubcaps.


4TH PLACE:

Jerry Williams of Little Rock, Arkansas was awarded $14,500--and
medical expenses--after being bitten on the buttocks by his next door
neighbor's Beagle dog. The Beagle was on a chain in its owner's fenced
yard. The award was less than sought for because the jury felt the dog
might
have been a little provoked. At the time, Mr. Williams, who had climbed
over the fence into the yard, had been shooting it repeatedly with a
pellet gun.

3RD PLACE:

A Philadelphia restaurant was ordered to pay Amber Carson of
Lancaster, Pennsylvania, $113,500 after she slipped on a soft drink and
broke her coccyx (tailbone). The beverage was on the floor because Ms.Carson had thrown it at her boyfriend 30 seconds earlier, during an argument.

2ND PLACE:

Kara Walton of Claymont, Delaware sued the owner of a Night Club in a
neighboring city when she fell from the bathroom window to the floor
and knocked out two of her front teeth. This occurred whilst Ms. Walton
was trying to sneak in the window of the Ladies Room to avoid paying the
$3.50 cover charge. She was awarded $12,000 and dental expenses.

1ST PLACE:

This year's runaway winner was Mr. Merv Grazinski of Oklahoma City,
Oklahoma. Mr. Grazinski purchased a brand new Winnebago Motorhome. On
his trip home from an OU football game, having driven onto the freeway,
he set the cruise control at 70 mph and calmly left the driver's seat to
go into the back and make himself a cup of coffee. Not surprisingly,
the RV left the freeway, crashed and overturned. Mr. Grazinski sued
Winnebago for not advising him in the owner's manual that he could not
actually do this. The jury awarded him $1,750,000 plus a new
Winnebago Motorhome. The company actually changed their manuals on the
basis of this suit just in case there were any other complete morons
buying their recreational vehicles!

UNBELIEVABLE!!!

[eldorado]

Sad but true-
These morons should of been tatood on the forehead with the word "IDIOT" and marched thru their home town.
And people wonder why you want an offshore corporation!

[johnhyre@ameritech.net]

Yes, those verdicts, if accurately reported, are ridiculous. I suppose this means that the system is beyond repair and we should head for the hills, right? Or at a minimum, be very, very afraid.

Or perhaps not. In a nation of 300+ million, we can show a few examples of ANY kind of idiocy. Can I show ten people who last year put batteries & lightbulbs where the sun doesn't shine? Yes, I've seen that & more in medical journals. Does that mean we are a nation of......well, you know! Hardly.

Can I show a few examples of people who died in such stupid ways that they improved the nation's genetic pool? Yes, the infamous Darwin Awards, give us at least a dozen examples per year of people who died in remarkably stupid ways (Coke machine fell on guy who attacked it, idiot attaches transport plane rocket unit to sports car and goes SPLAT, moron capatults self over fence into rock concert - and get impaled on tree, etc.). Does that mean that we should suddenly all be in fear of dying like a moron? Of course not.

The above excerpts are amusing because they are, by definition, quite exceptional. If you look at them as reason to panic (or buy x product that will "protect" you), you need to step back, take a statistics class, and calm down. Exceptional & humorous anecdotes do not make for an accurate picture. Our legal system definitely has some serious problems that should concern us - analyze those problems and protect yourself based on the reality of the issues. DON'T react (other than with a well-deerved chuckle) to tales of idiocy that are a mere drop in the bucket as far as the "whole picture" goes.

John Hyre

[txrigdiver]

www.darwinawards.com (http://www,darwinawards.com)

this site has been on my favorites list for years.
here's another one that is just way to funny too

www.stupidvideos.com (http://www.stupidvideos.com)

[OzarkVU]

You guys might enjoy http://www.thisistrue.com/
He puts out a weekly newsletter of the craziness in today's legal world. He has a free and a paid membership available. I get quite a kick out of it.
Ed

[dealmaker]

Unfortunately NONE of these "jury awards" are true. They are ALL URBAN MYTHS. Similar vein to the "microwaved poodle", "choking doberman" etc.

The ones listed are 5 of the 6 that are generally referred to as the "Stella Awards".

For more on similar vein you might re-read my earlier post on this thread about the misconceptions about the gal who "everyone knows" got millions from McDonalds for the scalding coffee.

For edification try snopes dot com.

It's funny how so many of us like to rail against the legal system in the U S, but let one of us get wronged by an agent, seller, inspector or anyone else and the advise from others on this board (and others) is "get a lawyer".

Frank

[eldorado]

Can I show a few examples of people who died in such stupid ways that they improved the nation's genetic pool? Yes, the infamous Darwin Awards, give us at least a dozen examples per year of people who died in remarkably stupid ways (Coke machine fell on guy who attacked it, idiot attaches transport plane rocket unit to sports car and goes SPLAT, moron capatults self over fence into rock concert - and get impaled on tree, etc.).

Fortunatly, Mother nature has a way of eliminating the stupid, and keeping the gene pool clean.
Unfortunatly for all of us, there are some that slip thru the cracks.


For more on similar vein you might re-read my earlier post on this thread about the misconceptions about the gal who "everyone knows" got millions from McDonalds for the scalding coffee.

What a the public isnt aware of-is the fact these judgements get appealed and tied up with further litigation in years in court. Just because a judge says your supposed to be rewarded X amount of dollars-doesnt mean you will get in your lifetime.

In my own personal opinion, lawyers should NOT be able to sue on a contingency basis at all-
Just the way it's done in other countries.
If you wish to sue someone,YOU have to pay for it out of your pocket. This would eleiminate the people looking for somthing for nothing and tieing up the legal system.
Bogus slip and falls, intentional car accidents, the list goes on..

I ran across a guy who's sister fell on ice going into a WalMart-
His atitude was "They got more money than me-I'd go for it"
She got all her medical bills paid for, A hip replacement, permanent disability, and $4000.00 per month for life.

Let's see...Did she deserve it?

It was just after a ice storm, She had the opportunity to be dropped off at the front door, They parked at the back of the lot, and she was wearing pumps (spike heels) and a skirt in a windstorm...

Why should Walmart (and us in the end) pay for someones elses stupidity and ignorance??