When is a room a bedroom?

[lelliot3]

When we purchased our home, the seller (& the county) said the house had 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, and a den. The den is as large as a typical 4th bedroom bedroom (10' x 11'), we use it both as an overflow bedroom (we get lots of visitors in Florida) and as an office, it is located at the front of the house off the great room, and it has a door that closes but no closet space. When getting an appraisal for our HELOC, the appraiser commented that we should be positioning the house as a 4 bedroom instead of as a 3 bedroom.

When is a room a bedroom?

[neodemes]

IMHO it is a bedroom when you say it is...within reason.

If you have a mudroom off your entry way, its not going to go over very well calling it a bedroom.

But if you have a decent sized room, in which bed(s) will fit nicely, and, even better, has a closet as well, its a bedroom, whether currently used as such or not.

Point out the multi-funcionality Den/Sewing room/Office/whatever to prospective buyers who don't need 4 bedrooms!

hth

[lelliot3]

IMHO it is a bedroom when you say it is...within reason.

If you have a mudroom off your entry way, its not going to go over very well calling it a bedroom.

But if you have a decent sized room, in which bed(s) will fit nicely, and, even better, has a closet as well, its a bedroom, whether currently used as such or not.

Point out the multi-funcionality Den/Sewing room/Office/whatever to prospective buyers who don't need 4 bedrooms!

hth

The 4th bedroom of every house we have owned has always been the office with a bed or hide-a-bed stuffed in there. Unless one has quite a large family, that always seems to be the case.

Will the appraiser treat it as a 4th bedroom just because we label it as such? How does an appraiser decide if it's a 4th bedroom? The appraiser is really the one that has to be convinced. The buyer can agree that's it's a 4th bedroom but the appraisal won't go well if the appraiser is not on board. The county records call us a 3/2 but that's fine because it keeps the taxes down.

[neodemes]

BEFORE having it appraised, put in a bed, curtains, and the usual bedroom trimmings.

Unless there are other factors I am oblivious to, an appraiser would be hard pressed to deny it as a bedroom. :thumbsup:

[lelliot3]

BEFORE having it appraised, put in a bed, curtains, and the usual bedroom trimmings.

Unless there are other factors I am oblivious to, an appraiser would be hard pressed to deny it as a bedroom. :thumbsup:

Actually, that's what the HELOC appraiser told us to do, too. I know you are not supposed to fall in love with your houses, but I'm really going to miss this one. And I've only lived in it for 9 months! She's so comfortable and pretty!

[secoon]

Locally, the appraisers check city / county records to see what the home is "legally" classified as. They may not bother for a simple refi, but on a sale, they are going to go by county records.

Sean

[lelliot3]

Locally, the appraisers check city / county records to see what the home is "legally" classified as. They may not bother for a simple refi, but on a sale, they are going to go by county records.

Sean

I agree that an appraiser will probably look at the county records but what authority does the county have to decide what my house really is? Do I need to go to the county and get the records changed? What do county records and appraised values for mortgage companies have to do with each other? (That is not a rhetorical question.) What if the county said I had 5 bedrooms? The appraiser would not go by that if all he saw was four bedrooms. Why would he go by the county record which says 3 bedrooms if his eyes tell him 4 bedrooms?

[Dan Auito]

Different authorites have minimum square footage requirements which it appears you would most certainly satisfy, what you also need to have to make that space qualify as a bedroom is continuous flow from the main interior airconditioned space, a closet, a door to the room and an egress window that conforms to your local building inspectors codes. That will do it!

You can always ask your local building inspector to drop by with his or her little code book to give you your local regulations to make it conform. They do this for free. Call the building inspection office at your local planning and zoning office and schedule someone to come out or at the very least give the info over the phone. Hope that helps! Dan

[lelliot3]

Different authorites have minimum square footage requirements which it appears you would most certainly satisfy, what you also need to have to make that space qualify as a bedroom is continuous flow from the main interior airconditioned space, a closet, a door to the room and an egress window that conforms to your local building inspectors codes. That will do it!

You can always ask your local building inspector to drop by with his or her little code book to give you your local regulations to make it conform. They do this for free. Call the building inspection office at your local planning and zoning office and schedule someone to come out or at the very least give the info over the phone. Hope that helps! Dan

I'll do just that. We conform to all the things you have listed except for the closet. We have the flow, door and egress. We are lacking the closet. We were going to purchase a wardrobe to fufill the storage requirement. Talking to the building inspector is a great idea. In the end though, it seems like the appraiser controls our destiny.

[secoon]

Talking to the building / planning department is a great idea. It certainly isn't the appraiser that seals your destiny here, it is the locals.

In addition to Dan's points (again, from local experience) it is the city / county building department and planning department that get to tell you what your home is, can be used for etc.

I'll give you a local example. Client wants to add square footage for a bedroom. City says NO. Not enough parking. You are limited to 3 bedrooms. Client says fine.. I want to add a den. City says fine.. sign this document stating that the additional square footage will NEVER be considered a bedroom.

So now, they have what you have.. the square footage, flow etc, but NOT a legal bedroom.

Talk to the city / county officials and you will better know where you stand. Either way, you could always list it as "three plus bedrooms" and the next buyer will see the potential.

Let us know what the various departments say, and we can help further.

Sean

[lelliot3]

Talking to the building / planning department is a great idea. It certainly isn't the appraiser that seals your destiny here, it is the locals.

In addition to Dan's points (again, from local experience) it is the city / county building department and planning department that get to tell you what your home is, can be used for etc.

I'll give you a local example. Client wants to add square footage for a bedroom. City says NO. Not enough parking. You are limited to 3 bedrooms. Client says fine.. I want to add a den. City says fine.. sign this document stating that the additional square footage will NEVER be considered a bedroom.

So now, they have what you have.. the square footage, flow etc, but NOT a legal bedroom.

Talk to the city / county officials and you will better know where you stand. Either way, you could always list it as "three plus bedrooms" and the next buyer will see the potential.

Let us know what the various departments say, and we can help further.

Sean

I called the county and they were very helpful. The requirements for the fourth bedroom are safety egress (got that), smoke detectors hard-wired inside and outside the room (need to install those, permit required), and possess a septic system rated for 4 bedrooms (yikes!).

I called the health department and she pulled up the original permit for the septic system and faxed it. Someone is smiling on me because the system was specified for a 4-bedroom house. I have another call in to the county to get more detail on all the steps that need to be accomplished to get changed from a 3/2 to a 4/2 in the county records, but it looks doable given that the septic system is adequate.

[lelliot3]

I called the county and they were very helpful. The requirements for the fourth bedroom are safety egress (got that), smoke detectors hard-wired inside and outside the room (need to install those, permit required), and possess a septic system rated for 4 bedrooms (yikes!).

I called the health department and she pulled up the original permit for the septic system and faxed it. Someone is smiling on me because the system was specified for a 4-bedroom house. I have another call in to the county to get more detail on all the steps that need to be accomplished to get changed from a 3/2 to a 4/2 in the county records, but it looks doable given that the septic system is adequate.

I talked to my HELOC appraiser today and he said no 4th bedroom without a permanent closet. Interestingly, he also said he remembered my house from the appraisal he did back in May. He said most houses are a blurr but this one stood out. It's custom built by a local builder who has gone big time and doesn't build homes in the $200K+ range any more. The appraiser said not to sweat it because the market (Central Florida) remains very hot and the house stands out from the crowd. That is probably the good news and the bad news since he admitted this is a very difficult house to comp. I love it but I can't figure out how to move it to Ohio!

Also, I am now in the wrong section of this board because I am going to be using a realtor. My new employer will cover the cost. Thanks for all your comments. This forum is wonderful.

[SunRaye REO]

You beat me to it. Fannie Mae will not allow us to classify ANY sized room as a bedroom without some sort of functioning closet. It can't be the temporary closet on wheels either. You can probably get a carpenter to build you one for less than $300 plus parts. I know my brother in law used to do that when he was just starting out.

Jesse

[lelliot3]

I talked to my HELOC appraiser today and he said no 4th bedroom without a permanent closet. Interestingly, he also said he remembered my house from the appraisal he did back in May. He said most houses are a blurr but this one stood out. It's custom built by a local builder who has gone big time and doesn't build homes in the $200K+ range any more. The appraiser said not to sweat it because the market (Central Florida) remains very hot and the house stands out from the crowd. That is probably the good news and the bad news since he admitted this is a very difficult house to comp. I love it but I can't figure out how to move it to Ohio!

Also, I am now in the wrong section of this board because I am going to be using a realtor. My new employer will cover the cost. Thanks for all your comments. This forum is wonderful.

We originally listed the house for $224,900 and ended up selling for $217,000 (same as our purchase price) with the buyer paying $2,900 of our closing costs. I think our purchase of the home 9 months prior must have been one of the comps! I don't know how else they got it to appraise high enough as a 3/2/2.

We had originally agreed to $224,900 with us paying $4,000 of the sellers' closing costs but the best appraisal they could get was $217,000. We rejiggered the deal to a selling price that matched the appraisal and the sellers paid $2,900 of our closing costs. They really wanted this house as I did when I saw it. I know it's stupid to love a house and a neighborhood (that I had only lived in for 9 months) but I shed a few tears when I left the house for the last time last weekend to head for Ohio. I will miss our neighborhood pajama club. Because of the mild weather, several of the neighbors would walk their dogs, get their paper, and come out to the street to drink coffee and chat while still in their pajamas.

[Dan Auito]

Sounds like paradise and now your in Ohio. They'll be out in snowboots and parka's now. Burrrrrrrrr :SM109: :frown:

[lelliot3]

Sounds like paradise and now your in Ohio. They'll be out in snowboots and parka's now. Burrrrrrrrr :SM109: :frown:

It is a wee bit cooler, but I love the "ruralness." I don't miss the hustle and bustle of the "big city" and actually found it quite annoying when I flew back to Tampa for a few days. I saw more cars in 20 minutes in Tampa than I had seen in 2 weeks in NW OH. Luckily, we have lots of friends in Florida who will be happy to take us in for a few days when we need a dose of sunshine!

[Dan Auito]

It is a wee bit cooler, but I love the "ruralness." I don't miss the hustle and bustle of the "big city" and actually found it quite annoying when I flew back to Tampa for a few days. I saw more cars in 20 minutes in Tampa than I had seen in 2 weeks in NW OH. Luckily, we have lots of friends in Florida who will be happy to take us in for a few days when we need a dose of sunshine!

So glad you made it safely and have come back on line with us to let us know how it is going. I can really relate to the ruralness issue as I went from Tampa to Kodiak Ak. with a total pop of 7500 and two blinking lights on the whole island.

I on the other hand am returning to Inverness Fl. in the spring but we have 15 acres of sanity waiting as opposed to the Tampa rat race in our last forey!

So glad your back and do keep us in the loop and invite a few of your friends to join us! :icon_buss