Patio Concrete Question

[Debbie]

We took out grass directly outside of our back french door. Jeff has already 3/4 done preparing for poured concrete patio (approx 20' X 20'). Next, we'll be putting rocks or pebbles then hire professional for concrete.

We have estimates from concrete guys. I must admit that I've been rolling my eyes at widely ranges of estimates. Methinks we'd be better off DIY.

Maybe I'm being a dumb brunette but methinks that we can just simply save money by buying bunch of concrete (or is it cement?) bags and rent out that rolling thingy and pour it.

Realistic or fantasy?

[dealmaker]

IMO you're looking to contract out one of the easier DIY jobs. However, before you do anything I'd spend a couple of hours, take the kids with you, watching a crew do some CONCRETE work.

CEMENT is to CONCRETE, like FLOUR is to CAKE. It's a component, not the finished product.

It is messy, and the kids can't be around when you're doing it, but it's not hard to do. Like anything else, prep work is very important. Correct depth to get enough thickness, correct base, correct reinforcement etc.

BTW, why not a deck instead of concrete, even one built close to the ground. It's cheaper and an easier DIY project and looks so much better when finished.

Frank

[Debbie]

IMO you're looking to contract out one of the easier DIY jobs. However, before you do anything I'd spend a couple of hours, take the kids with you, watching a crew do some CONCRETE work. :D Got you beat! We, as a family, watched our village repaired and remodeled (tornado damaged) that also included crew pouring concrete.

CEMENT is to CONCRETE, like FLOUR is to CAKE. It's a component, not the finished product. I knew that BUT I always forget. I do, however, like the way you compare.

It is messy, and the kids can't be around when you're doing it, but it's not hard to do. Like anything else, prep work is very important. Correct depth to get enough thickness, correct base, correct reinforcement etc. Kids are easier to control than our 11 months old Golden Retriever! LOL. You are definitely correct in all else. Jeff has already dug down to 8". He got the framing in and leveled. He'll be adding 2" to 3" of rocks/pebbles this weekend. Then it'll be ready for concrete (at least 4")

BTW, why not a deck instead of concrete, even one built close to the ground. It's cheaper and an easier DIY project and looks so much better when finished. We did plan on that. Unfortunately the ground is not low enough or the house is not high enough to justify a deck, especially for the size. Otherwise, we'd have rain coming towards our house. I concur about the easier DIY project for a deck (Jeff did the front porch) however for some weird reason, deck is more expensive compared to DIY concrete patio.

Frank

If there's a chance that the deck can be done in spite of lack of height between ground and house, I'd sure like to hear about it before this weekend...

BTW----How's your vacation? I see you're back! Glad to see you posting cause I missed you!

[Randy (SELA)]

Deb,
IMHO for a 20' x 20' patio don't even consider using a rolly thingy. That's WAY too much work. Get the concrete truck to pour it and grab some cheap labor (friends) to help finish. My friends, labor=beer

[Debbie]

using a rolly thingy.

I know, I know---it's called a mixer (right?)

Randy---That's funny! Great minds think alike because during today's lunch, Jeff and I were just talking about having friends and almost free labor.
Thanx!

[TommyOH]

Hey Deb, I couldn't help but notice in the posts that you didn't mention much about reinforcement. Don't forget to put a good wire mesh on top of those pebbles/ rocks to help hold the concrete together for years to come. It should actually be propped up an inch or so above the rocks.

[Debbie]

Hey Deb, I couldn't help but notice in the posts that you didn't mention much about reinforcement. Don't forget to put a good wire mesh on top of those pebbles/ rocks to help hold the concrete together for years to come. It should actually be propped up an inch or so above the rocks.

I asked Jeff about the type of reinforcement (i.e. mesh). Jeff said that he's planning on joint spacing.

Thanx for bringing it up Tommy because it could've been overlooked.....

[Jeffery (LCLA)]

I asked Jeff about the type of reinforcement (i.e. mesh). Jeff said that he's planning on joint spacing.

Thanx for bringing it up Tommy because it could've been overlooked.....

Sack crete would not be a good choice for a 20' x 20' pad, plus that an awful lot of bags to mix. You'd be better of with some contrete from a plant with large rocks in it. The only expansion joint you should need is where the pad touches the concrete of your home. If the pad can expand in three other directions, you should only need the one expansion joint. You'll want to use a treated 1x4 for that. 2x4's for the form and stakes every 24". If you do it yourself, you'll need one bull float, three poles, a come along with a hook (use the hook to pull the remesh up into the concrete), and a brush. Being up in Ill, you may want to check with your local permit office to see if you need a footer below the frost line (I don't know how cold ya'll get up there). Floating the crete is more of an art than a science, but you'll want to pull the bull float over the entire area several times and spinkle water over it before each pull. After it's completely smooth, and when it starts to stiffen up, that's when you'll want to brush it. The reason for brushing is to leave small brush strokes in it for slip resistance. I've found it best to tie a small rope to the brush so that one person can stand on one side of the pad and pull the brush all the way across while the other person pulls it back. That way, you don't have an ugly brush mark in the middle of the pad. Hope I've confused you enough.

[SlumLordMike]

My friend re-did his porch and steps while I sipped and encouraged. We went down to the local DIY/Tool Rental place and bought a few yards of wet cement. I pulled the bucket and cement behind my pick-up and we poured it by tilting the bucket with the installed hydraulic jack that came with it and a shovel.

If you Tool Rental place does not have wet cement for sale, you can probably go down to your local conrete plant and buy some there.

[Burke]

If there's a chance that the deck can be done in spite of lack of height between ground and house, I'd sure like to hear about it before this weekend...

Maybe you could build a smaller pad right at your door step (4' X 8' maybe) and then a deck to the side or around that with a step up to an appropriate deck height.

[Aldo]

I'd definitely suggest going with Randy's or Mike's suggestions. The guy who does my concrete work would suggest (unless timing is an issue) watching construction sites for the concrete work to begin. When the concrete truck driver begins cleaning up after delivery, Tom approaches him with a case of beer and a request that the driver unload the remaining concrete at his job site. He tells me the trucks nearly always have more than is needed and the drivers prefer to return with an empty truck.

Mike's suggestion would be the next cheapest way to get concrete, aside from mixing it yourselves. In case you're not aware of if, there are places (maybe even in Springfield) where you can buy mixed concrete, ready to pour. Yeah, it's more expensive than DIY, but mixing concrete is not a fun job and your time is certainly worth something.

[Burke]

Also, in my experience, getting a nice smooth surface on a concrete job isn't as easy as it looks but my experience is pretty much limited to a basketball court at a poor school in the Dominican Republic with a bunch of guys who knew very little about laying concrete and was having to haul our water up from the nearby creek in 5 gallon buckets. Maybe that doesn't count!:SM083:

If you DIY, be sure and wear appropriate clothing. The lye in the powder can burn your exposed skin (at least I think it is lye).

[Debbie]

WOW! What great responses!

I promise that Jeff and I will mull over what each of you said in this thread before Saturday.

Thank you!

[Aldo]

Trust me, Burke is not 'lye-ing' and it's important for you to know that. I hate being redundant, but I've been there and done that. If this wasn't important, I'd have passed on replying here.

[Burke]

Maybe you could build a smaller pad right at your door step (4' X 8' maybe) and then a deck to the side or around that with a step up to an appropriate deck height.

I just thought of another option. Maybe you could mark an area off with some landscaping timbers or lawn edging....fill the area with pea gravel and nice plants with pave stone or other stepping stones a short distance to a step up deck. Here is a link to a blog where the rehabbers built a pave stone walk leading up to steps to a deck. http://www.shilohproperties.com/reports/blog-9v.html A little different scenario in that the building height was high enough to build the deck at the door and the steps down to the walk but you could build a nice area right out your door that leads to some steps up to an appropriate height deck.

[Greely]

I do not agree this is a DIY job. To mix bags is only 400 bags of sakrete. 4" thick is 5 CY of concrete. That can get away from you very quickly if you do not know what you are doing. I have poured and finished a lot of concrete, and would not try this without at least one experienced helper, and at my age I had rather have two experienced so that I can sip beer and give orders.

[DanD]

Well, How did it turn out?

[Debbie]

Well, How did it turn out?

LOL...

Jeff is still working on preparing the patio....as of this moment, he's smoothing the dirt and about to pour crushed stones (about 2 inches), leaving 4 inches for poured concrete. We'll let the pros do joint spacing...

Next, we will contact the professional concrete pourer and have them come on over.....

Debbie

[DanD]

Watch your finishers. Follow the steps they take and be patient.
I started with a little 4' x 20' pad behind a garage.
Helped a few others with theirs. Last summer I did half of our patio, 12' x 22'.
and then a 18' x 24' for my wifes mother.

Like any thing else practice, practice and you will do fine.

I know I will proally never have the same finished results as the pro's, but as a week end worrior what ever I do turns out ok. Then the next time I try to do it a little better.