Request for written rules to be created for Magic Bullets Administrators.

[mike_mn]

This thread is a response from this unrelated thread that got off topic.
http://www.magicbullets.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5154

This is my response and request for changes to the loose subjective rules emposed by the admins here at Magic Bullets:
_________________
Snipped from here - http://www.magicbullets.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1805&postcount=20

A good forum it is said should be in the best sense left alone to regulate itself naturally with the majority voice being heard and anyone who is on the edge of the unpopular vote taking the appropriate hint without much else needing to be said.

If the hint isn't taken then you could say a violation of the unspoken rules has been broached, breached or otherwise ignored, at that time they would get their warning from the head office :SM127:.
...
Try to remember everyone is here by their own accord and attraction to one another so try and understand the next persons viewpoint even if you disagree, if you don't want to view the post just move on to the rest and enjoy the experience.


From the horses mouth itself.

Note to all those with ability to modify or delete posts. Please send a PM to the subject party and allow them to modify their own post. If they still don't agree that a modification needs to be made, then you better have a conference with the admins before changing or deleting someones post.

I am not suggesting that obvious spam not be removed...what I am talking about is posters with hundreds of posts having their posts modified or deleted without warning.


One more thing...I belong to another forum that has 116,000 members and over 6 million posts using vBulliten, the same software we use here for the forum. There is a lengthy process for a post to be changed. The site is self policed as problem posts are reported. If it is obvious spam it is removed quickly, if not, the user has x days to modify his post or leave it if he belives it is not offending. If the post is still complained about then the post will be modified or deleted by admins. There have been some serious tounglashings given, but if it gets over the top, it is diffused or posts are requested to be modified...everyone polices themselves...Do we really need interviening from admins? With a large number of complaints thing happen quicker...

[Dan Auito]

The fallout shelter is indeed the place for off topic conversation, that does not include off color remarks, profanity etc...

Political humor by nature will offend SOMEONE no doubt, I guess most see it coming.

Hopefully the profane remarks get edited leaving the original conversation in tact.

As a great big favor to me, I ask that everyone recognize the imperfections in the system as well as their fellow investors and accept the defects at face value trying to understand that the world nor this forum will ever be perfect to the satisfaction of everyone all the time. (wordy I know) Thanks!

[mike_mn]

Dan, my reply is not only because of one off topic thread, but of a number of threads where tempers may have flared or discussions deemed too heated(not by the participants and not off topic) have been removed or edited by the adminsitrators in the past 6 months or so...I am not including you as I have never seen a post, not yours, edited by you unless a gross obsenity or something unquestionable has occured, which is obviously merited.

I am just asking that admin request posters to edit there posts themselves instead of playing God and making the changes themselves, unless there is gross obsenity, spam or a list of things acceptable to edit directly. It would be nice to layout what is acceptable and what is not, as to not have unwritten rules enforced at the will of a couple peoples individual idea of what is acceptable.

I have not seen any of these problems until others have taken over the moderation and administration from you.

I have no problems with accepting others as is until they start pretending they are me and editing or deleting my posts.

[Dan Auito]

Very well said, and understood as well. This post shall stand! Let me work on this behind the scenes as we continue our efforts at maintaining civility and free speech.

[Debbie]

Dan, my reply is not only because of one off topic thread, but of a number of threads where tempers may have flared or discussions deemed too heated(not by the participants and not off topic) have been removed or edited by the adminsitrators in the past 6 months or so...I am not including you as I have never seen a post, not yours, edited by you unless a gross obsenity or something unquestionable has occured, which is obviously merited.

I am just asking that admin request posters to edit there posts themselves instead of playing God and making the changes themselves, unless there is gross obsenity, spam or a list of things acceptable to edit directly. It would be nice to layout what is acceptable and what is not, as to not have unwritten rules enforced at the will of a couple peoples individual idea of what is acceptable.

I have not seen any of these problems until others have taken over the moderation and administration from you.

I have no problems with accepting others as is until they start pretending they are me and editing or deleting my posts.

I do appreciate and acknowledge that no name(s) were mentioned. It may or may not necessarily involves me but I do want to make a few comments.

I do admit that I edited several posts in the past. I have always added a "Note" or similiar within that post that it was I who edited and why.

Heck! I even sent a pm to spammers (if they're online) telling them their posts are deleted and that spammers are not welcome. That is my first standard procedure that I created for myself. Why? Courtesy purposes.

I have not edited anyone's post except once in the last, I'm guessing, couple of months. That was a newbie's first post and he included his personal phone number. I did add a note to it stating it was me and why.

Insofar, I have yet to receive a complaint from those specific posters that I edited or deleted.

While I take my job as a moderator seriously and am happy to provide a good environment within this Magic Bullets. However, if anyone is unhappy with me as a moderator, send me an email. If there's more than one unsatisfied member, I am willing to step aside, resign as a moderator and let someone else take over.

What I won't sacrifice is my membership within Magic Bullets.

As a courtesy comment---no, I'm not upset with anyone within Magic Bullets.

Debbie

[mike_mn]

Debbie,

With your response it becomes clearer to me that each moderator/admin enforces based on what they think is the best way...this is what I find unacceptable.

There needs to be clearer standards of what the protocol should be and is, if there is any.

I still beleive the best method of dealing with "offensive" posts, is to contact posters and allow them a period of time to modify the offending post prior to making any changes. Otherwise if there is a list of offensive words(posted for all to see on a rules page or something) or terms being used, the mod/admin can and should remove or edit immediatly, or at least hide the post from view and contact the poster to have them modify the post.

[Debbie]

Mike,

Acknowledged.

If there's one additional unsatisfied member, let me know and I will step aside.

Debbie

[mike_mn]

Please do not interpret my post as asking you to step down. It did nothing of the sort. I am not unsatisfied with you. I am only talking about the group as a whole, it has nothing to do with getting rid of any of you. Only has to do with getting you all together on a common ground, instead of each on your own island...

[Debbie]

Okay. I understand that you're not being unsatisfied with me.

I still stand by my word that if there's other members who's not happy with my moderatorship, I will step aside.

Fambly is more important to me than being a moderator.

Debbie

[Debbie]

BTW....This thread is now officially the hottest thread....:SM083:

See the home page under "At a glance".

[Dan Auito]

Wolmic and every other soul in the family.

These are the instructions and they are easy to understand an operate with, let everyone keep them in mind and we'll take it from here.

If it isn't profane, pornographic, pharmaceutical or plain old Spam then try and leave the posts in tact, if necessary post your objection publicly in the next post, but try not to alter, delete, move, modify or mutilate peoples posts arbitrarily without a formal consult in this topic area if you really have severe heartburn over the post.

Note: To the membership, obviously you aren't burdened with policing the boards but your voice is heard when you have a grievance regarding how things go around this joint, feel free to try and accept some posts as not your cup of tea and try to refrain from commenting if it won't make the situation better. Thanks everyone for helping the T.E.A.M tackle the pains of operations.

[Debbie]

:D = I'm happy! :SM083:

[Jim Johnson]

Wolmic and every other soul in the family.

These are the instructions and they are easy to understand an operate with, let everyone keep them in mind and we'll take it from here.

If it isn't profane, pornographic, pharmaceutical or plain old Spam then try and leave the posts in tact, if necessary post your objection publicly in the next post, but try not to alter, delete, move, modify or mutilate peoples posts arbitrarily without a formal consult in this topic area if you really have severe heartburn over the post.

Note: To the membership, obviously you aren't burdened with policing the boards but your voice is heard when you have a grievance regarding how things go around this joint, feel free to try and accept some posts as not your cup of tea and try to refrain from commenting if it won't make the situation better. Thanks everyone for helping the T.E.A.M tackle the pains of operations.

I will modify my response to postings as requested... If I have offended someone by removing or modifying posts I publicly want to apologize. I have always tried to work with posters when I have found content out of line... but if I had not... sorry. You all have a great day!

[mike_mn]

Dan,
Thank you for trying to do some clarification for the admins/mods to get some continuity.

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but one thing that falls under gray area to me is if a post is profane...specifically individual words. Obviously profane content is something that will have to be handled, but individual words are of concern to me.

For example, words like bullshirt(yes shirt, used in refering to some printed material on the net) and ass(used to refer in general to sales jerks(as in short for jackass), not the buttocks kind) have been replaced with completely unrelated and completely PC words that don't even cast the same thought. Does your new set of guidelines address this type of things?

If not, I would ask that you specify what profane words are unacceptable. To do this, an easy suggestion might be to utilize the automated nature of vBulliten and add a list of obscene words to the database. When turned on, with the system that is here, the obscene words are automatically modified to ****** without any personal admin input. It is a simple search and replace function done by the forum software. This will at least get rid of the issue of words that are definatly obscene. And people will know right away that there is a problem.

EDIT:
Nevermind I found this excerpt from the rules page that each of the moderators should read.
http://www.magicbullets.com/rules.php

The Following Guidelines Apply:

Language: Mild expletives and non-sexual anatomical references are allowed, but profanity, strong vulgar language, crude, lewd or explicit sexual references, harassing communications and hate speech -- harsh personal insults and epithets directed against one's race, religion, ethnic origin, gender or sexual preference -- are not allowed even if disguised with asterisks or other text and characters. Message board posts that contain explicit, obscene or vulgar language or images and/or messages that condone illegal activity (ie. illicit drug use) will be removed without notice and accounts subject to deletion! Remember, posting to Magic Bullets.com is a privilege, not a right.

I iinterpret this that both bullshirt and ass are allowed and should have never been modified by the power that be.

[Debbie]

One last suggestion might be to utilize the automated nature of vBulliten and add a list of obscene words to the database. When turned on, with the system that is here, the obscene words are automatically modified to ****** without any personal admin input. It is a simple search and replace function done by the forum software. This will at least get rid of the issue of words that are definatly obscene. And people will know right away that there is a problem.

I haven't seen that part (yet). I'm curious and can't wait to see that.

[mike_mn]

http://www.magicbullets.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_vb_censor_explain

It says it is used already in the FAQ section on the top tool bar under "Why have some of the words in my post been blanked?"

However I have never seen it used...

[Debbie]

http://www.magicbullets.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_vb_censor_explain

It says it is used already in the FAQ section on the top tool bar under "Why have some of the words in my post been blanked?"

However I have never seen it used...

Oh yeah. I did see that when I first registered. I forgot about that.

Hmmmm....broken, perhaps?

[Dan Auito]

No vbulletin auto word deletion features will be activated. People should be able to use good judgement otherwise expect some sensors to kick in on the human side as the result.

[Jim Johnson]

Dan,
I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but one thing that falls under gray area to me is if a post is profane...specifically individual words. Obviously profane content is something that will have to be handled, but individual words are of concern to me. First... you are beating a dead horse. It is obvious you are upset because someone modified a post of yours, or someone else's that you did not feel needed to be modified. You have made that point and behind closed doors... this issue is being addressed.

For example, words like bullshirt(yes shirt, used in referring to some printed material on the net) and ass(used to refer in general to sales jerks(as in short for jackass), not the buttocks kind) have been replaced with completely unrelated and completely PC words that don't even cast the same thought. Does your new set of guidelines address this type of things?

As I read a post I look for 'intent'. The words you are using would not be used in my house in any circumstances by anyone. As I would apply the 'intent' rule to your words... your intent comes clear to me. You are trying to be profane in some obscure way. I wonder if your kids can use those same words around the dinner table or when talking about others they have been in contact with they did not get along with. I for one try to teach my children to communicate without using profane words or even the implication of them. Would have I flagged your words... probably not... but really... what is your intent?


If not, I would ask that you specify what profane words are unacceptable.
To do this, an easy suggestion might be to utilize the automated nature of vBulliten and add a list of obscene words to the database. When turned on, with the system that is here, the obscene words are automatically modified to ****** without any personal admin input. It is a simple search and replace function done by the forum software. This will at least get rid of the issue of words that are definitely obscene. And people will know right away that there is a problem.

That automated function does not have the ability to find all of the variations for words (intentions) that cover the 'profane' part of moderating a board. Is it too much to ask that we all act like 'responsible' adults and treat this board like anyone with a computer, regardless of age has access to it? My 12 year old daughter reads this board... I expect... actually demand she use better choices in expressing herself than are used by some of the 'adults' on this board. How about finding a way of communicating frustration without needing a program to kick out your post.

EDIT:
Nevermind I found this excerpt from the rules page that each of the moderators should read.
http://www.magicbullets.com/rules.php

The Following Guidelines Apply:

Language: Mild expletives and non-sexual anatomical references are allowed, but profanity, strong vulgar language, crude, lewd or explicit sexual references, harassing communications and hate speech -- harsh personal insults and epithets directed against one's race, religion, ethnic origin, gender or sexual preference -- are not allowed even if disguised with asterisks or other text and characters. Message board posts that contain explicit, obscene or vulgar language or images and/or messages that condone illegal activity (ie. illicit drug use) will be removed without notice and accounts subject to deletion! Remember, posting to Magic Bullets.com is a privilege, not a right.

I interpret this that both bullshirt and ass are allowed and should have never been modified by the power that be.
I believe you interrupt this wrong. Again I will say if your intent is to be any of these things, no matter how you attempt to 'disguise' you profanity, you should go back and check your work. If your intent is to be profane... you are profane. I say everyone should keep the boards clean of the profanity (or the intent to be profane). Therefore the need for filters is mute. Thus allowing posters with hundreds of posts (that I guess feel they should have a free pass), to post freely. This is really a non moderated board, real moderation would mean that every post must be approved BEFORE it goes to the public side of the board.

So be clean... as clean as your are with your husbands, wives and kids.

[Debbie]

Thank you Jim.....This allows me to chime in as well.....

As a parent, I will say this.....if this Magic Bullets still exist in several years from now, I most certainly will allow both of my daughters to read this website for educational purposes.

That's to assume that Magic Bullets remains to be family oriented website, which happens to be one of two reasons why I joined in. My second reason being that Magic Bullets is free for anyone to learn and to teach Real Estate.

Don't forget....we do have at least one known member who happens to be a teenager. I can only imagine how many more are teenagers who regularly reads this website, members or guests. We need not use disguised profanity. Without a doubt, their parents would not appreciate their teenagers being exposed to disguised profanity.

For all intents and purposes, it is our responsibility to teach our younger generations the true class of using good english.

It is with sincere hope of Jeff and mine that the integrity of Magic Bullets will not change.

Off my soapbox.
Debbie (along with Jeff's mutual opinions)

P.S. - that is not to say that we don't use a good alternative words (disguised profane), especially when it comes to stubbing our toes!!!

[TommyOH]

I agree with Jim and Deb. My kids (14 - 26) are all showing interest in what dad does. I do not normally endorse any type of chat or forum for my kids because there are alot of rough ones out there. However, I would have no objection to my kids getting information from this site at all. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and it is good for all to argue points. Once an arguement gets to a climax, sometimes things need to be cooled, or controlled. I think everyone here on the administrative side does an excellent job at allowing conversations to flow, weather they agree or not. But when the brakes need to be applied, they are, and I see nothing wrong with it.

Now we're up to 12 cents ;)

[Aldo]

There are more questions and answers here than I have time or direct interest in replying to, but will offer some of my thoughts. Since this thread appears to be mostly Wolmic-specific, I'll address those issues.

Wolmic, I take full responsibility for editing-out the word 'bullshirt'. You, I, and anyone over the age of six knows exactly what word was intended and I'll not apologize for that. You must understand that an author's intent is usually not clear to a reader. That's important because many readers may be potential fambly members who are put off by objectionable language and/or innuendo.

To me, someone's use of profanity is an indicator of a limited vocabulary and an insensivity to those who may be offended by that. I'm one of them. When I visit a new (to me) forum or Q&A and find objectionable language, I'm history at that site. You cited using the word 'ass' as being okay because, by some convoluted (not undetstood by me) explanation, it's acceptable. While you understand it, few, if any, others see anything other than a reference to.......well, you know. Allowing a poster a few days to edit his/her post is unacceptable. Objectionable material needs to go away right now for the reasons stated above.

Dan has provided very clear, recently updated, guidelines for his administrators and moderators and those guidelines are strictly adhered to. Posts/threads will continue to be modified by the power that be. Well, almost. I'm a bit more conservative (say, less lenient) than Dan.

A recent report has shown that this site is among the highest rated RE sites in the USA. I intend to help, as I can, make it THE highest rated RE site in the USA. Allowing spam, improper and/or unacceptable links, false advertising, non-RE-related posts head the list. Next come the thread/posts which include profanity (in any form), sexual issues and anything which could be construed as discriminatory toward any protected class, etc. "Construed" is the key word here. There's more, but you surely get the drift.

The end story is that you, Wolmic, are a highly valued member of the MB fambly. I respectfully request that you consider the values of others when posting. What is acceptable to you may not be acceptable to others.

[InvestorJoe]

Aldo,

I find it more than a little humorus that you used words that you would edit out of others posts to show that they should be edited.

Feeling a bit circular today?

[mike_mn]

It is unfortunate that this has turned into a thread about me...I hope that some of the people that have pm'd me supporting me taking a stand on this issue will chime in at some point as well. Not that I need any support on this thread, I know that the underserved folks that have had posts edited or deleted outside of the rules without notice are with me. There is even at least one mod/admin that has felt the same way as me...per a heated pm discussion in the past...

Just wait until it happens to you unknowingly without warning. It is a violating feeling to have a posting that you carefully worded to be changed by someone, if your intent was to provide dialog to a thread useful to someone, which mine is everytime i login.

All I have been asking is that the rules of the board be followed. Don't edit a post if it follows the rules. I would like to hear from the moderators what exactly a mild explitive is(since according to the rules page, they are acceptable), or have the rules change to disallow mild explitives. My intent with the words in question has been to use a mild explitive to get my point across, completely within the rules of magic bullets.

My overall intent is to be understood. If I think something is a bunch of bull, i will say it is bull and my saying bull, bullshirt or bullhonkey should be construed as saying the same thing. Do they mean or refer to anything different?

The same goes for idiots. The word jackass is an animal otherwise known as a mule or sometimes donkey. Mules are wellknown to be a pain in the neck to deal will. People and things are called a jackass, in reference to thier inability to deal with and for being an idiot or a jerk. Referring to a group of people or a known figure as a jackass or ass is social fauxpaw in the US. However, it doesn't change its meaning or ability to understand the word and no intent to be profane exists, only the desire to use mild explitives to get a point across. For example, I personally think that most sales people are jackasses. I also believe that 90% of the population basically stinks. Everyone has their own issues...

Since the only people on this green earth that can hold title to real estate must be 18 yrs old, this is an adult board to me. You can let your kids go anywhere you want to on the net, but this board has adult content on it about the investment real estate business, which on occation can have heated discussions and the occational mild expliltive used to get points across until the forum rules change. This board also, contrary to some admin's beliefs, is about a whole slew of other topics in the humor area and the off topic area called the fallout shelter. If non REI threads are going to be edited to remove political content when the forum is for off topic discussions that may include politics, then that part of the forum should probbaly be turned off.

Whatever is done as a result of my request for consistancy is fine with me, just be defined, follow the rules and be consistant.

If that means changing the rules, fine, again...be defined, follow the rules and be consistant.

[Debbie]

To anyone who feels that we have violated your posts, please let us know.

We don't bite....Let us know! We can't help or rectify if we're not being told, especially by the majority.

[brianb_cobbres]

Wolmic, I am sorry this turned into a pile-on-wolmic thread when you are just expressing the same frustration that many of us are feeling I, for one, decided to just walk away from this site and stop posting rather than make an issue of it. What did it for me was the response to a SPAM posting a few weeks back in which the admin response basically blamed the general membership for the SPAM as if we could do anything about it or had anything to do with it. What you are experiencing today is just a symptom of the same problem and one that is not easily corrected. It tough to administor morality but they are going to try.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

[Debbie]

What did it for me was the response to a SPAM posting a few weeks back in which the admin response basically blamed the general membership for the SPAM as if we could do anything about it or had anything to do with it. What you are experiencing today is just a symptom of the same problem and one that is not easily corrected. It tough to administor morality but they are going to try.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

BrianB,

I'm lost on your statement about blaming general membership....I do not know what or how best to respond to that because that is the first I've heard of such blame.....Help me out here....

Sounds like you're leaving.....I don't really understand what exactly is the symptom....Help me out here too...

Somehow, somewhere....somebody is not getting the straight points....Help me out here....I'm trying to help everyone here!

[Aldo]

This thread has gone awry and appears to be out of control. A highly respected fambly member announcing potential departure is clear evidence of that. For that reason, this thread will be closed to further posting.

I thank everyone for posting their thoughts but, some of those thoughts have gone beyond the limit of civil discussion. The future of this site greatly out-weighs personal differences.

As a matter of information, newly fine-tuned guidelines, approved by Dan, have been created and will be imminently made available to the site moderators and administrators alike. The thoughts expressed in this thread had a huge effect on the updating of the guidelines and I, again, thank you for your input.

[Dan Auito]

In keeping with our new guidelines, a thread can no longer be closed arbitrarily by any one Mod or Admin alone.

We the Admins and Mods have our own forums to discuss appropriate actions to be taken on questionable posts as a result of that procedure the consensus is to open this thread back up.
Civility is appreciated!

Side note: I think anything that is in Dan's office (forum) should stay open until I or the consensus of the board chooses to close it collectively.

I do want to thank every individual who has posted to the thread as it indicates a willingness to pursue solutions to ever changing and evolving conditions and events that come up as we continue to pursue our real estate ambitions.
Thanks goes to everyone for your understanding and patience during the rough spots.

[AIR]

I have been a member to a few different forums, this so far has to be one of the best ones I have seen yet, so much info, etc...
I was a member to another forum for about a year and in that time the moderators began to have "power trips" so whenever anyone would disagree with them they would ban them, it got really bad and many people including myself switched sites, I went back not too long ago and realized they fixed the problem by limiting the power of the mods, the site seems to be running much better and I may begin to participate again
I havent seen anything similar to this on the site, although I have only been a member for two days... just thought I would share my experience

[Dan Auito]

Thanks AIR. Nothing is perfect.